We Should All Learn How to Be a Rich Old Lady: An Interview with Amanda Holden

Piggy 0:00 

Bowie, I love you very much, but this is a very important interview, and you have not been invited for it. Well, I guess he’s just gonna be here. He’s just like crawling— 

Amanda 0:09 

Mommy’s trying to talk about cannibalism and crypto bros! 

Piggy 0:17 

Let’s start with the very first, most important question. Your book is called How to Be a Rich Old Lady. It is I, your beloved overlord slash spiritual leader, Piggy, a.k.a. Jess, and I am here today with a very, very important guest, Amanda Holden, a.k.a. Dumpster Doggy. This woman is amazing. We have known her since Bitches Get Riches basically started. We’ve been friends for years and years and years. Alert citizens of Bitch Nation will probably recognize her from the millions of times we’ve quoted her in our investing advice, but today we’re going to specifically talk about her brand new book. Ooooh! I don’t want to put it between me and the microphone, but here it is, How to Be a Rich Old Lady. It’s beautiful as she is. Amanda, how are you? 

Amanda 1:01 

Hey, I’m hanging in there, Piggy. Thanks for asking. Thanks for shouting out my book. 

Piggy 1:06 

You’re totally welcome. I’m very excited to start reading it. I just started reading it the other day when I got my advance copies in the mail. It’s pretty great. One of the things I love about it is how fucking funny you are. 

Amanda 1:19 

Thank you. I tried. That’s the big goal is like how can we take this otherwise very crusty topic and make it not suck? 

Piggy 1:30 

Yes, make it not suck. I think you are succeeding in that. I think you have succeeded in that for years with your invested development course, which I know many of our followers have taken and which I myself have been a fly on the wall in. I want to start off my interview with a very important and hard hitting question. So gird your loins. If you had to share a desert island with a crypto slash AI bro, a manosphere podcasting alpha male, or the worst guy you went high school with, who would you choose? 

Amanda 2:00 

What a question. I’m trying to think of like… Yeah, no, I get it. 

Piggy 2:06 

It is actually a trick question because it’s all the same guy. 

Amanda 2:07 

Why would you make me answer this? You know what? Sure. Put me on a desert island with Sam Bankman-Fried. Let’s see what happens. I got to eat something. 

Piggy 2:15 

First serious question. Why is it important to become a rich old lady? 

Amanda 2:23 

It is important to become a rich old lady because I just want us all to be financially free. And because financial freedom is freedom. Because as we know, even something as simple as rest or a garden, these are things that are only reserved for the privileged. And I do not think it should be this way. But I also can’t personally thwart capitalism. I’m going to try. But so my goal with this book is to give people the tools and education they need to achieve some semblance of peace under our current system. And being a rich old lady, which is just… Rich old lady is just a fun way to talk about financial freedom or financial independence, which are really just variations of saying, I have enough money to retire. Becoming a rich old lady is just not something that is going to happen spontaneously, especially in this country with the erosion of the social safety net. I’ve had fishnet tights that work harder than our social safety net. 

Piggy 3:33 

God, ain’t that the truth? Well said. 

Amanda 3:38 

Yeah. And ultimately we get to retire when we have enough money to retire. We get to walk away from work when we have enough money or really investments to walk away from work. And investing is this learned skill. Everyone has to learn it. Nobody is born knowing it. And it is this necessary skill if what you want is to at any point untether from labor. How can we buy ourselves more freedom? And investing is the act of buying ourselves freedom. 

Piggy 4:13 

Absolutely. And one thing I love about the book so far is that you start the book with the assumption like, hey, you have already been living on a shoestring budget. You don’t need to be told to count your pennies and live within your means. You jump straight to investing. 

And I love that. But why don’t you tell me a little bit about your investing journey and how you have gotten on the path to be a rich old lady and really, I mean, justify your existence. Why should we listen to you? 

Amanda 4:46 

No problem. Salute to camera. Sure. So my investing journey began when I graduated from school with my economics degree. And I was like, oh, what is a person with an economics degree supposed to do? Go work in finance. So I ended up working in investment management, truly for no other reason than it was just like the thing that I thought I was supposed to do. And that year, the year that I started working in finance and investment management was the year of our Lord 2008. And for those of our bitches who are too young to know what happened in 2008, the bottom fell out of the entire thing, but in particular, the stock market. 

And so basically everybody at my firm was laid off. But for whatever reason, they kept me. And actually what happened was there was a manager who was working on my floor and he came over to me one day and he was like, hey, I noticed you talk shit to all of your coworkers. Why don’t you get upstairs and talk shit to our clients? And so they basically, when I was 24 years old, they thrust me into this position. They basically put me into this department. I was the only young woman in a department of all these middle-aged men. And it was trial by fire. I basically learned investing because I had to explain our portfolio strategy to our high net worth clients. 

And so I was explaining investing strategy really before I had even started investing myself. It was around that same time that I had started investing, but I was also young and dumb and stupid and making all sorts of mistakes you might expect from a young woman in San Francisco with her first big girl paycheck, just basically lighting my paychecks on fire. Really my first experience investing was in having to learn how to explain it. 

I was at the firm for about six years before I… It just was such a spiritual mismatch. It was really great. I learned a lot. I get to do what I do now, but helping rich men get richer was not ever going to be my destiny. And I left thinking I would walk away from finance altogether. 

But this idea just kept gnawing away at the back of my brain, which is, hey, you’ve been helping all of your girlfriends with this stuff. You know this vital life skill. Why don’t you turn around and get it to the people that you actually care about? And so that’s when I doubled back and started my business, which I’ve been doing, my financial literacy business, my investing education business, which I’ve been running for not quite a decade. And so the latest act is writing this book and giving everything I’ve learned about investing, having come from the industry, into this book as what I hope feels like an act of service for people who are trying to access this information, but who maybe were left out of these conversations before. 

Piggy 7:37 

God, what an icon. I love you. No, I love that. But you talk about in the book too, and something you just said really brought this up to me, that the financial system being designed as this exclusive club for old white boys and helping rich men get richer, like you said, it’s intentionally confusing and gatekeep-y. I love that you have made this your mission to take what you were explaining to those old white men and give it to the masses. But if I may drop a little spoiler for the end of your book. So one of the last chapters is called Apocalypse. It is about this financial nihilism that we are all seeing. This idea that we’re all aware that the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. We’ve got all these systemic issues to surmount. Why should we even really try? Why should we bother? Can you give us a little preview of that chapter and your idea about financial nihilism? 

Amanda 8:45 

Yeah, absolutely. So the idea for that chapter came because I was sitting at a counter deli in Manhattan, and there were some very young women who were sitting next to me. One of them was explaining to the other that she did not sign up for her 401k because, and I quote, the apocalypse is my retirement plan. 

Piggy 9:04 

I mean, I get it. I get it. 

Amanda 9:08 

And I get it too. I am also the first to admit that some sort of whole scale system collapse is not outside the realm of possibility. But if our greatest concern is that that happens and we have nothing, what’s interesting is, I mean, that’s not even a guarantee. And the only way to guarantee that you have nothing is by doing nothing. And so you are realizing your worst fear by doing nothing at all. 

What I want to do is I want to educate people about how this system works and allow them to make these decisions, but also letting them know that they’re going to need to do something, right? 

Piggy 9:51 

Yeah. 

Amanda 9:52 

If you ever want to feel like you are able to have a little bit of freedom from labor, then you’re going to need some sort of resources. Let me teach you how to do it as safely as possible. If what you’re deciding to do is invest in the stock and bond markets, and also the real estate market. But those aren’t the only ways to invest. 

Another chapter that I have in my book is on investing in community, because I actually believe that each other, one another, is one of our greatest sources of wealth that we are often cut off from. And so thinking about our wealth in terms of all of these systems of safety and security and freedom. And it’s tough because what people want is they want to be told that everything is going to be okay. And that’s why a lot of personal finance educators take that path. I know you’re unwilling to do it. I’m unwilling to do it because it’s not really that honest. 

And if you are going to be an investing educator, I think the greatest gift that you can give to your students is to be completely honest about the risks that people are taking on. Yes, so they can make a decision about whether to engage or not. But I actually think that just having these honest conversations helps us sleep at night, right? 

Piggy 11:11 

Absolutely. 

Amanda 11:12 

Part of my strategy is actually knowing that like, hey, this thing might not work out. And what I’m going to do is I’m going to hold on to it loosely, hoping that if the entire thing washes away, that hopefully it’s making room for something much better. 

Piggy 11:28 

Well said, very well said. So one of the things you talked about right there was that there are different forms of investing. And you do in the book and in your work, go over a lot of stock market investing, real estate investing, even investing in yourself via education. But let’s talk about your abortion fund. 

Amanda 11:46 

Well, reproductive rights are economic rights. And it is so unfortunate that we’re seeing this attack on women’s reproductive rights, but that’s the reason they’re doing it. Project 2026 is not hiding the fact that what they want is a return to traditional gender roles, and specifically a world where all relationships are between a man and a woman, which is already disturbing enough. But then that woman acquiesces all of her power, including her financial power, to the man. That is the world that they dream of. And so what they want is a return to a world where women are going to be working because women have always worked. It’s just a matter of whether that work is paid or unpaid, or whether women are compensated for their labor. They want to return to a world where women don’t have their own bank accounts. 

And so what do we do knowing that what they want is for women to be trapped at home and making babies? Well, we prepare for that. I think all women should have an abortion fund, which includes the money necessary to, if necessary, get an abortion and also travel for an abortion. But it also includes stockpiling Plan B, which you can get for $7 at Costco. You do not need to have a membership. Tell them you’re going to the pharmacy. Walk in, buy that Plan B. You can proactively buy Plan C, which is abortion pills. And you can have them on you, not just for yourself, but for your friends and for the younger women in your life. That is rich auntie behavior right there. 

Piggy 13:17 

Absolutely. 

Amanda 13:18 

Once you’re safe, on a collective level, we can start to look at donating to actual abortion funds. I kind of co-opted the term abortion fund. 

Piggy 13:29 

An individual abortion fund versus a collective abortion fund. Sure. 

Amanda 13:33 

And so something that I’ve been doing for a long time is I just picked a red state randomly and have been donating to the Missouri abortion fund because I also want women who do not have access in their state to abortion to be able to access the funds necessary to travel for an abortion. And abortion funds are doing really incredible work making sure that women and all birthing people have access to the health care that they need. 

And so I think something that happens for those of us that are cozy in our natural fiber pajamas from our liberal cities in our blue states, we don’t realize just how dire the situation is for so many of the young women across this country. And another thing that we can do in collective solidarity is to speak up. We just need people all across the country to speak up on behalf of that girl in Arkansas or that black woman in Texas who has three times more likely chance of dying during childbirth than a white woman. And speaking up on behalf of these women because we cannot take for granted the strides that feminist movements have made so far in giving us this, again, reproductive freedom, which is economic freedom. 

Piggy 14:50 

Yeah, exactly. Using our collective voice is something that I know you’re really wonderful at and we love that about you. But speaking of collective action, you got arrested last year. Can you tell us a little bit about what got you arrested? 

Amanda 15:03 

Sure. So, yeah, I’ve been arrested four times in the last two years. 

Piggy 15:09 

Oh, my God. I can’t believe I understated it so much. Hell, yes. 

Amanda 15:12 

Yeah, I’ve been spending a lot of time in zip ties, a lot of time in jail. And three of those times were in connection to activism work that I’ve done to protest the genocide in Gaza. And one was protesting an ICE raid in Manhattan. During this process of writing the book, it’s coincided with this time where we have watched now multiple genocides unfolding on our phones. And it’s been really horrifying and it has affected me. And so something that I have felt duty-bound to do is to hand over my platform and to stand up for people living in some of the most oppressive, violent conditions in the world. And that means learning their stories, demanding an end to their slaughter, raising mutual aid. I support several families in Gaza now. Over on my page, we’ve raised over $50,000 for these families. 

Piggy 16:11 

Hell, yes. 

Amanda 16:12 

Yeah. And really just doing some of my own unlearning and uncovering of the systems of imperialism and war for profit that led us to this moment of unthinkable atrocity, as well as the propaganda machines working overtime to manufacture the consent for it. And so I’ve just been casually doing that while I write my book. 

Piggy 16:41 

I love it. I love it. It’s interesting because we are surrounded by these finance bros who, again, the stereotypical investor is a white guy in his mid 40s who is already wealthy and is trying to get wealthier and just kind of has this isolationist, solipsist sort of point of view. And instead, what we have in you is this rabble-rousing activist who know, you’re putting not just your ideas and your voice on the line, but your body on the line. Getting arrested is not fun. Activism is a wonderful thing you can do, but it’s not easy. And I look at the juxtaposition of you in your loud-mouthed feminist, save the world mode, and all of this investing information you’re giving out. And I’m like, thank the Bitches above that we have you who is able to sort of walk this line and show that, A, you don’t have to be a rich white bro to invest, but B, you don’t have to sacrifice preparing for your own future and supporting your own community to make your voice heard. 

Amanda 17:49 

Yeah, I appreciate that so much. Thank you for saying that. And I always find it so interesting that when we talk about investing, it’s always talked about in terms of this individualistic act, when we all got to live in this world, right? 

Piggy 18:04 

Yeah. 

Amanda 18:05 

What are we doing here? I also want to invest in the best possible world because I too have to live in that world. And so to me, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to hoard resources or to think only of myself because I also want to live in beautiful, flourishing, safe, and secure communities. And so that is absolutely a part of what I consider to be my investment plan. 

Piggy 18:32 

Totally. I live in Denver, which has been hit really hard by ICE. We have a very large Latin American and Mexican population. And I don’t feel like I can enjoy a wealthy, stable life if my neighbors are living in fear of dropping their kids off from school and getting ICE’d. I read an article recently about the bunkers, do you know about these billionaire bunkers? 

Amanda 18:58 

Of course. 

Piggy 18:58 

So yeah, all the gazillionaires, they’re building their bunkers in these remote locales and hiring private security forces. I’m like, really? You guys have basically unlimited money. And instead of using it to not only invest in your own future, but invest in the future of the planet and communities to make your future not necessitate a bunker? Instead, you’re like, nope, nope. I’m hiring the mercenaries, I’m digging underground. And it’s just such a weird choice when you do have the choice to invest in making the world a better place. Why would they choose bunker? I don’t get it. 

Amanda 19:39 

They choose bunker every time. And I don’t know if it’s because… Well, all the studies that we know about wealth and power is that they erode people’s sense of empathy. And so these are the guys that are now running the world. And so perhaps it is no surprise that that is what they have chosen, but it never… I mean, it is ultimately what we are going to have to fight. The world is being controlled by capital and by these broken vacuous men who control the capital. And so this is going to be the fight of our lifetime. And wresting control from these men is going to be the task. 

And so that’s actually one of, I think, the best reasons to get yourself to a place of relative financial stability. Because here’s the thing, part of the reason I’m able to go out and be on the streets on a Tuesday, get arrested, provoke the police is because I have a lot of privilege. And one of those privileges, of course, is that I am white. Another one of those privileges is that I can miss a week of work because I work for myself. And so these are privileges that are afforded to me by having some sense of financial stability. I would not even say that I am somebody that is incredibly motivated by my own money, but it is motivating to me to get to a place where I can work on collective solutions. And often that does require some individual security. And so that’s just a great reason to get motivated as well, right? Get yourself to a place where you can then help others. I love that as a reason to focus on your own money this year. 

Piggy 21:22 

Absolutely. I went to the No Kings protest in October with a friend. So we’re in this Lyft and our Lyft driver is like, where are you guys going? And we’re like, we’re going to the No Kings rally. And he’s just like, I wish I could go. I need to make some money. My kid, he needs braces. I got to keep driving Lyft, but give ‘em hell out there. And I was just like, of course we will! I’m so glad that this guy, he might have to drive Lyft and work his ass off for his kid and not have the time or the space to go out and protest and make his voice heard. And just like, well, you know what? I can do that for him. And I think that we should all aspire to be in the position that you and I are in where we can take time off to use our privilege, use our wealth in ways that are going to benefit other people. Rich old ladies are going to save the world. That’s our belief. 

Amanda 22:11 

That’s right. That’s right. 

Piggy 22:12 

That’s right. Yeah. Rich old ladies, we’re going to save the world. So what is one thing that you want our future rich old ladies to start doing right now to secure their beautiful, activist, playing in the garden, playing with puppies future? 

Amanda 22:27 

Maybe this is too obvious and you’ve probably already coached your bitches into doing this, but having an emergency fund set up, always the first step. Even if you’ve got some debt, it’s okay to start saving. Even if you’ve got some debt, it’s okay to start investing as well. And I want us to start investing as soon as possible. But the truth is you’re going to be a much better investor if you are doing it from solid ground. 

Piggy 22:54 

Hell yes. Yeah. I think the statistic is still like most people can’t find $400 to cover an emergency and that’s fucking scary. Alright. What’s one thing that you would coach future rich old ladies to stop doing right now? 

Amanda 23:08 

Okay. I would coach them to stop conflating your retirement account, like a 401k or a Roth IRA, with the investments inside the account. The number one investor mistake that I see made is somebody is told, maybe they watch a finfluencer TikTok that tells them, hey, all you have to do is open up a Roth IRA, put in a hundred or $300 a month or whatever it is. And with a 7% compounding rate of return, by the time you’re 80, you’re going to have a bazillion dollars, right? We’ve all heard this advice. And it misses a very important step, which is actually investing the money because a Roth IRA is not an investment. It’s a bank account that holds investments. A 401k is not an investment. It’s a bank account that holds investments. 

Generally, when we are investing inside of a Roth IRA or a 401k, we are investing in funds that hold stocks and bonds. And so it is actually the stock market that powers the returns in, for example, your workplace retirement account. And so the other thing that we need to do is we also then have to understand how the stock market works. It is absolutely wild to me that you sign a piece of paper signing up for your 401k program on your extremely sweaty first day of work, where you are really not concerned about making portfolio management decisions that are going to determine the entire outcome of your retirement and life, without any education as to how this thing works. And the truth of the matter is a 401k is not so much a retirement plan, so much as it is a vessel for investing in the stock market. And so every single one of us, whether we’ve got $100 invested, or whether we’ve got $100,000 invested, or $1 million invested, it really is important that we understand the basics of how this works. And what I’m referring to really is volatility. We have to understand the nature of markets because there is no point of investing if you don’t know how to protect yourself during a bad year in the markets. 

Piggy 25:20 

Oh my god, yes. Anyone who saw our main stage presentation at EconoMe, I think it was two or three years ago, but I got up there and I admitted that my first 401k was “invested” in money market, which basically means it wasn’t invested. So the money was just sitting there. And I had to have my boss, who fortunately was a pretty good guy, come and tell me like, hey, your retirement account is in money market. And I was like, I know. And he’s just like, no, that’s not good. So I wish a book like yours had come out 20 years ago, because I definitely could have used it. 

Amanda 25:57 

Yeah, I appreciate that. And so often what I hear from my students is I wish somebody had taught me this 20 years ago. And that is the trick of how do I get this information into the hands of young people? It’s difficult just because when you’re young, and maybe you’ve got student debt, or you’re barely getting by. I mean, let’s not gloss over the fact that like, it is really, really difficult to save right now. 

Piggy 26:21 

Oh, absolutely. 

Amanda 26:22 

We are in an incredibly different economic environment. And so I certainly don’t fault any 21 year old who’s not like, let’s get started investing. But it is great to build your foundation of knowledge. Understanding even like why you need to be doing this is going to help give you more clarity in making all money decisions. And so you don’t have to wait to get started just learning. God bless the, what’d you say? The lady bitches upstairs? 

Piggy 26:48 

The bitches above. Bless the Bitches above. 

Amanda 26:49 

Bless the Bitches above for the Bitches Get Riches blog, because you’ve done such a good job of helping people see through the muck and get started. And so yeah, here’s to education. 

Piggy 27:04 

Yeah, hell yeah. And I mean, on that note, you know, some people might be listening to us and be like, well, shit, like, I’m 35, 40, 45 years old, like, and I haven’t started investing yet. Like, I guess it’s too late for me. Like, why bother? To which I say, it is definitely not too late. This advice that Amanda gives is not just for the teenagers and the recent college grads and the people who are just getting their first job and starting a 401k. Like if you are in the middle of your career, like the best time to start is now. 

Amanda 27:32 

Absolutely. And if you are in the middle of your career, even towards the end of your career, you won’t regret doing something. But it is true that we don’t have as much time to waste. And so the best thing you can do for yourself is if you’re going to get started, get started in an educated way. At the very least, what we cannot have you do is giving the finance bros any extra money because that is something that is also important to understand about investing is that the providers of our investment products do not necessarily exist on the same side of the table as us. This entire industry is propped up by fee extraction. They make money when they take money out of your fund, out of your wallet. And it’s so insidious because what you’re never going to get is a bill. They’re never going to send you a bill to your house that details their fees. They are simply going to help themselves to your money. And so at the very least, what we can do is just make sure that we are investing in such a way that gives us the best chances of success, which also means limiting the amount that we are paying in fees to the finance industry. Do not forget that the finance industry is a for-profit industry that exists to profit, not to make your life better. And so treat it as such. 

Piggy 28:59 

Absolutely. And that’s another thing that I really like about your work in general and the book. I mean, I know in your invested development course, you talk a lot about minimizing fees. I know some people who are like, oh, well, I just let my finance manager or my fund manager decide on all those things. They’re not really upfront with the fees that they’re charging you for that information. It’s just another way of gatekeeping information and making the world of wealth exclusive to the privileged few. I don’t particularly want to pay high fees on my retirement fund. I worked hard for that money. I want it to work for me, not some rando over at Fidelity or Charles Schwab or whatever. 

Amanda 29:37 

Yeah, especially when you learn that there’s really not something a wealth manager can give you that you can’t get yourself. And in fact, the opposite is true. Even active management, even when it’s done by a professional, it tends to lead to worse outcomes. Whereas if you just invest in a passive way, like let’s say you just invest in low-cost index funds that just invest you across an entire market, you tend to do much, much better. And the reason for that is some random guy at TDAmeriTrade is not going to be able to beat the market. They don’t know something that the rest of the investing world does not already know and that has not already been metabolized by the market itself. And so beating the market is nearly impossible. And so it’s okay to pay for help but truly know what it is you’re getting out of your financial help. And doing better than the market is something that isn’t really possible on any sort of long-term basis. And so just be leery if that’s what you’re paying for, know that you’ll probably do worse than if you had just invested in a low cost passive way such as using index funds. 

Piggy 30:45 

Yes. I mean, there is a whole industry that is based on extracting as much of your returns on investment as possible. And you might not notice that it’s happening because you’re still getting some of those returns on investments too, but you could be getting a lot more. Which again, why I recommend your book, How to Be A Rich Old Lady. Where can people find you on the internet, and where can people buy the book, or where can people take your invested development course? 

Amanda 31:13 

Sure. So find me on the internet @dumpster.doggy, I’m mostly on Instagram but I’m also on TikTok. If you would like to take my invested development course, you can access it through my social media so just go find it there, or you can search invested development. How to Be A Rich Old Lady wherever books are sold! 

Piggy 31:36 

Request it from your local library because the more requests that libraries get for books, the more likely they are to spend their budget on those books. And if you do buy it, I recommend getting it from IndieBound or directly from Amanda’s website. But yeah, this has been heckin’ lovely. Thank you. 

Amanda 31:53 

Loved it. Thanks, Piggy. 

Piggy 31:55 

Alright. Bitches out.